Jihad Against the Apple Store?
Wednesday, October 11, 2006 at 11:47AM 
According to an article in TheRegister (UK) (Click here: Apple's NY Fifth Avenue store is an 'insult to Islam' | The Register), the Apple Store on Fifth Avenue in New York, is an offence to Muslims because it looks too much like the sacred ka'ba in Mecca. You gotta be kidding????
Oh, and while we are speaking of Islamic outrage, the advertisements on TheRegister website (UK), listed this little gem: Islamic ringtones for your cell (Click here: RingRingMobile - Get Your Ringtone and Bonus Tones Now!). Now you can hear "death to America" whenever you want!
I wonder if the sponsor of these ringtones knew that a fatwa had been issued against them by a Saudi cleric? I guess not. (Click here: Riddleblog - The Latest Post - A Fatwa I Can Understand!
Reader Comments (42)
I think I have proved my point - if we have Islamic governments, who attempt to base themselves on forms of Sharia Law and they do not overtly go invading other countries. Additionally if those who do become involved in Jihad are relatively small numbers of people from those countries (100s / 1000s in countries of millions), I believe I believe I have demonstrated that a fully Islamic state does not necessarily mean imperialistic islam (whilst of course there would be many other things there we would disagree with them about). And of ocurse I am not denying that some very rich people fund terrorism, and this is very worrying.
But, I think the Saudi rulers on the whole have other things on their minds, hence the battles they have with extremists and also the critiques of Saudi Arabia, I have heard from muslims..
If even a 20 ? % of world muslims actively supported jihad (as you define it) we would be overwhelmed - but it isn't so ! and I am not denying for a second that there are dangerous extremists who would want to bomb us, who need to be hunted down and dealt with by the rule of law..
I do hope you were joking when you implied that my trusting of my neighbours could depend on if they were muslim ?
Colin
Nope. And they don't trust you if you're a kuffar. It's in the Quran.
"If even a 20 ? % of world muslims actively supported jihad (as you define it) we would be overwhelmed - but it isn't so ! and I am not denying for a second that there are dangerous extremists who would want to bomb us, who need to be hunted down and dealt with by the rule of law.."
The percentage isn't actually known. This term "violent extremists" is nonsensical. The Quran and Hadith as well as every school of Sunni and Shia jurisprudence support the use of violence to advance Islam. Really, if you're not being violent, you're not being a good Muslim. We're not being overwhelmed, but you should really take a long, hard look at the demographic trends in Europe right now.
DSY
I think you both demonstrate why I believe that posts like Kim's are unhelpful. There is clearly an anti islamic strand in US / UK popular culture, which seeks to lump muslims in one extremist mass (or characterises them as one step away from extremism) and posts like this generally bring this to the fore. Thus prejudices are rehearsed and the development of balanced gospel attitudes are not encouraged.
Muslims in our societies are not going away !
We can spend our time characterising them as untrustworthy and fretting about their imperialism, or we can think about how we can adopt a more gospel approach.
The views I hear also appear to be characterised by second hand information (which of course is not always bad), but Walt tells me of life here in the UK (I will be hearing the call to prayer later today, from my work place) and DSY tells me 'I understand that a majority of average Canadian and European Muslims think 9-11 was a Jewish plot.' Have muslims told you this ? (oh of course they wouldn't, as they have no golden rule !!)
You both appear to be 'throwing stones' from a distance. Or am I wrong and you both have regular contact with muslims, and live in neighbourhoods where many live ? Do they come to your homes and churches ? Do holding these attitudes assist you in your day witness as the muslims you know don't mind you telling them this stuff and listen to the gospel afterwards ?
Colin
2. Bro. Mohler writes:
http://albertmohler.com/blog_read.php?id=789
1) I agree with those who point out that there really is a Muslim/Islam agenda (at least in certain circles), and that it involves hate,terrorism, etc. ... and that many folks in Muslim/Islam countries concur with this agenda. And aside from the fact that the agenda is wrong, so is any system of belief other than that which holds that Jesus alone is the way, the truth and the life.
2) I also agree with those who point out that not everyone in such countries supports the party line of others. People are people, and different people have different opinions. Thus it's unfair to paint all with the same brush. I hope we all remember Jas. 2:1-13; I hope that we ourselves will not succumb to partiality and lovelessness.
One more observation: I personally like the humor in KR's articles! There are some really funny things out there, and I'm of the persuasion that laughter really is good medicine ... not only when we see cause for laughter from others, but also when we can poke fun at ourselves.
So am I balanced, or just a spineless middle-of-the-roader??? Feel free to poke away!!! (Or am I just joking?)
I get my information by reading your newspapers and polls like this (hard statistical analysis):
http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2006/Sunday%20Telegraph%20-%20Mulims%20Feb/Sunday%20Telegraph%20Muslims%20feb06.asp
40% of British Muslims want Sharia. What does Sharia involve? Sharia and dhimma go hand in hand, by the way. British Labour MP Sadiq Khan called the findings of this poll 'disturbing.'
Then we have this:
http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=48
Then we have books like 'Londonistan' trying to warn Britons of what's going on in Muslim communities.
You're being told one thing by the Muslims you meet, but they're encouraged to lie to infidels. The Council on American Islamic Relations does this all the time, and is widely regarded as a 'moderate' Muslim group. Many, if not most, of the leaders of CAIR have ties to Hamas, Hizb'allah, and the Muslim Brotherhood.
Maybe Pastor Riddlebarger and others are trying to wake us up to what Muslims actually believe. Surely, this will better help you to witness to them, won't it? Or we can just stick our heads in the sand, and pretend that all is well. Perhaps it is useful for us to actually start studying their doctrine.
I guess you can add Dr. Mohler to the list of alarmists, right? Hehe.
DG Hart once accurately wrote that American Protestantism is much better at cultivating extreme than subtlety.
I don't think anyone is really suggesting we 'stick our heads in the sand,' Walt, and declare all is well. The idea that the only way to engage this Islamic phenomenon of our day is to run around looking for devils under every doily and if you don't you are sticking your head in the sand really conjures up some bad images.
History may very well judge your perspective to be the wiser one...but something tells me that it won't. I will be the first to admit that as American Christian what I know about Islam you write on the head of a pin; I am sure I have a good measure of naivete about some of it. There is nothing wrong with getting some education. But there has to be good, common sense involved. I highly doubt you'd prefer we lock up and quarantine every muslim in our borders, but I do wonder what your perspective, in the hands of those who make policy, would conclude about our own citizens. In other words, you sound pretty darned scared and willing to do whatever it takes to calm your fears.
I can certainly appreciate the underlying fear you seem to have as an American--I have that, too. Really, what American doesn't have that to greater or lesser degrees? You appear to be well read and as intelligent as the nexy guy...my point is simply to wonder if you have the same level of appreciation for sober and thoughtful and reasonable approaches, approaches that are not tolerant of naivete but are also cognizant of tendencies toward undue extremism. That's a very, very difficult balance in our day. My guess is that you really do, it just doesn't really come through all that well, that's all.
PP
Muslim institutions, schools and economic power should be strengthened in America, he said. Those who stay in America should be "open to society without melting (into it)," keeping mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam, he said.
"If you choose to live here (in America) ... you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam," he said.
Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant, he said. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth, he said.'
Is there anything I could say to make you consider your views ?
I looked at the poll and interestingly it doesn't define what is meant by sharia and in another poll, 1 % were pro the bombings - this doesn't really fit your thesis ?
Whilst I am sure the Londonistan book has some merit (or maybe not) it is written by Melanie Phillips. Melanie writes with a very specific agenda - she makes money writing that stuff - if she wrote a book that was conciliatory to her targets - her audience wouldn't buy it. The daily telegraph .... a fine paper (my friend writes for it)... but again it writes with a specific audience... and has a sorry history of picking on minorities...before muslims, they weren't great on black people.
Now.. I didn't say what I do....
My job is actually working with violent muslims !!! - I work with young muslims (and others) in trouble with the police - in the area where I work I know there are some who sympathise with extremists ---
but not one young person I am aware of and the numbers run into the hundreds - has been in involved in an offence related to islamic extremism !!!
Do I need to repeat that ?
and I work with some very dangerous young men (muslim and others). In fact I am far more worried about gang violence related to drugs and guns. This I believe is common to your inner cities in the US and there, as here has nothing to do with islam.
So when someone who has similar experiences to me in the UK or US comes and argues their point with evidence - then I will consider, but no one who has commented has mentioned any actual experience, nor answered my points when it comes to actual experiences - only with media writing with an agenda (and was what Omar M Ahmed said really concerning - wouldn't we say similar things about our faith ?)
To Christians, please pray for the work among muslims in your country - please consider what you can do practically and how a Christ centred approach would look.
Christians in the US and UK have bad records in dealing with those who are not in the majority cultures, who are Christians, let alone from other faiths - lets be characterised by our love, grace and bold speaking - lets seek opportunities, move into neighbourhoods and pray the Lord moves.
To encourage you - in another area of our city, my wife and I work with a childrens outreach - until fairly recently, a muslim lady in the full head and body covering, and a veil over her face used to bring her children - and thank God they heard the gospel and were welcomed by the sisters there - please pray for this family, we have not seen them yet this term - and this is where Christians need to be, we cannot complain when neighbourhoods go muslim, when we've all moved out and the churches have shut down,
And check out some of the archives at
purechurch.blogspot.com
Thabiti (he used to be an elder at Mark Dever's church) who runs it is a brother, who used to be a muslim, He has many practical and sensitive suggestions as to outreach and witness.
Thats me, I'm going to bed..
Colin
I'm offended by thier characterization of My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ... Would that Paul hadn't instructed us that we don't struggle against flesh and bone but against powers and principalities seated in heavenly places.
But a Muslim can get upset if I build an oversized transparent rubik's cube with an apple in the middle. Left hand kingdomwise, we could be mean about it and target mecca with a cruise missle. But we don't because we know that's not the point.
Of course, if we live and work with Muslims, we must show them Christian love and witness, and I commend you Colin, for your ministry with those young men.
DSY
I wasn't going to comment again... but I will leave with this...
There is only one way the US and UK, will be dominated by muslims ... and that is if all non muslims ... christians, atheists, sikhs, hindus, rastafarians, agnostics, buddhists etc etc STOP having children. That is it ! Despite the hype of Melanie Phillips and her Londonistan book, muslims make up some 2.7 % of our population ... so work it out ... we are 60 million in the UK - for how many years do we need to stop having children ? and in the US, I suspect percentage wise, you would all have to stop procreating for longer.
As for immigration, for those of you who believe that a steady stream of 1000s of muslim extremists are daily pouring into the UK - we have fairly tight immigration laws (which I know haven't stopped everyone who shouldn't be here), but do you know the biggest group coming here now ?
It is the Polish !!! their shops and their food (they even are starting to stock it in our main supermarkets) are starting to take over !!!
As to finding out more ... try and read a balance of material, if you read Londonistan, also read the material from Thabiti (purechurch blogspot), which I referenced above.
If you read the Daily Telegraph - read the Guardian (you won't like the politics - but even Al Mohler has commented how interesting it is)
I will also mention a book - now I hestitated to do this, as I haven't read it, but I have just looked through and seen some interesting comments in it regarding muslims and their views on jihad, martyrdom and terrorism and the intersection of these views with the teachings of the Koran. It is called -
'Muslim Britian - Communities under pressure' edited by Tahir Abbas published by Zed Books
It is written by British muslims, so is obviously biased to them, but may give another perspective to the diet of mainstream pop culture.
Most importantly it gives muslims' self perception and speaks of the issues they face, which I have mentioned of above.
Grace and Peace
Colin
Colin,
I've been thinking about this conversation for quite a while.
First, I commend you for your work and witness to these nominal Muslims who have a history of violent tendencies. I pray that these boys don't read their Qurans and Hadiths. If they become devout, they will become jihadists. They are really only a few Quran readings away from becoming so. Muslims are made in prison. Muhammads original band of followers were violent criminals.
Second, the fact that you're even hearing Friday calls to prayer and seeing Muslim women in full Islamic burkhas means that Britain has a serious problem. As an American, I care what happens to Britain. As a Christian, I care what happens to your hide.
Third, the poll reflected the schizophrenic thinking typical of Muslim communities. Since the Quran is schizophrenic in the abrogation of the earlier Medinan surahs by the later Meccan surahs (after Muhammad conquered Mecca and put the Quraish to the sword), Muslim communities are similar in their thinking. Consider, 96% of the Muslims thought the bombings were wrong, but roughly 200,000 people sympathized at least a little for the bombers. Why? Because the Quran and Islamic jurisprudence support martyrdom and jihad. Most of the Muslims considered themselves loyal to Britain, but 40% wanted Shariah. The two are inconsistent.
Fourth, the demographic trends in your country reveal that Muslims are quickly outbreeding you. You're sitting on a demographic time bomb. Consider the plight of the Lebanese christians (and sunnis) after Hizb'allah moved in in 1980. Hizb'allah, through polygamy, effectively outbred the Christians in that country. 20 years later, they effectively run the country. They held a massive rally in downtown Beirut just recently. There are places in London that are under de facto Sharia already. Britain was considering legalizing polygamy for tax purposes. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/791263.stm
When there are enough Muslims in Britain, they are obligated to attempt a takeover. If they succeed, Christians and Jews will be given 3 options:
1. Convert
2. Pay the jizya and become a dhimmi (offer incense to Ceasar
3. Die (the Christian option)
Fifth, I went to your website. Thabiti had some good suggestions on witnessing to Muslims. Last time he was on this website, http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2006/8/23/one-more-time-islam-is-no-religion-of-peace.html , he encouraged us to learn about Islam. I felt convicted and did. My early findings have not been encouraging. I also take issue with his suggestion to dodge the issue of insulting Muhammad when witnessing. If I can't tell Muslims that Muhammad was a false prophet, maybe my faith isn't worth anything. Moreover, Muhammad insulted my Savior.
Pam,
History is already firmly on my side. Given the 1400 years of Islamic history, it's likely to remain that way. The reformers actually thought that the Muslims were the army of the Beast. Pastor Riddlebarger is going to deal with this in his new book.
We all need to wake up.
I was not going to come back... but some of the things you are saying are completely false -
'If they become devout, they will become jihadists. They are really only a few Quran readings away from becoming so'
This is just outrageous alarmism - with no evidence
'Muslims are made in prison'
Yes, Richard Reid (the shoe bomber) did convert in prison - but many more show interest in prison and then none on release - and for even more, prison means no change in their nominalism - and this I have seen in many, many young men
'There are places in London that are under de facto Sharia already'
This is again is completely untrue or you need to visit and show them to me, or at least tell me where...
'The reformers actually thought that the Muslims were the army of the Beast'
Ok, some said all kinds of crazy things, they had no biblical warrent for, but didn't Luther say when discussing government - 'better to be ruled by a wise turk (muslim) than an unwise Christian' - or words to that effect.
I see from your link - you have all been here before.... and got just as far...
Grace and Peace
Colin
It's getting hard to present any evidence to you that you won't dismiss as 'alarmism.' I guess I'll try to indulge you anyway (maybe Birmingham should be added to the list as well):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2006/10/02/ntroops02.xml
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/video-islamist-parasite-abu-izzadeen-heckles-british-home-secretary-reid/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5307818.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/29/wsecurity29.xml&pPage=/core/Matt/pcMatt.jhtml
http://www.thes.co.uk/current_edition/story.aspx?story_id=2031867
'Peaceful' muslims turning violent:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1139395605038
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/279302_shooting28ww.html
I'll wait for Dr. Riddlebarger's exegesis before I decide that the reformers were off their rocker about Islam.
Well, I could go on like this all day. I wish you well.
If a Muslim Becomes devout, that doesn't mean merely reading the Qaran, but also following Sharia Law. Your "evidence" that you look for is in Sharia Law.
"This is just outrageous alarmism - with no evidence".
Go and listen to Sam Solomon...
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/The_White_Horse_Inn/archives.asp?bcd=2006-10-1
Right now, in Islamic prisons all around the world, Christians are under death sentences for converting, and die every day. Sam Solomon converted under pain of death. If you wont listen to him, you wont listen to anyone.
I reviewed my last post and the tone seemed a harsh - so I apologise for that .. but the sense of what I said I stand by .... I should of phrased it differently.
Mattumanu,
I appreciate this conversation has gone on and on, and some of meaning may have been lost, but I have not spoken of what goes on in the prisons of islamic countries and the persecution of our brothers and sisters. You may see this as the future for us in the UK, if we don't act - I can't see it based on what I have said above.
My whole point has been we need nuance in our discussion of Islam in the West. Yes thanks to Dr Solomons, I am now even more aware of the things I do not like in the Koran, but from my experience (from neighbours, colleagues, my wife's friends, and the young people I work with) there is a clear disconnect between the way the muslims you and I may meet day to day live and the imperialistic and warlike teachings within the Koran. Much like how I have seen surveys where the divorce rate among evangelicals (nominal ?) is not that different from the non religious population.
Additionally I have seen no reference to how a pre modern faith like islam, could be affected by it's transition to the west. What happens when it is in contact with modernity or post modernity, when the grandchildren of the immigrants to the UK, grow up surrounded by MTV, consumerism, democracy, hyper individualism, casual relationships, substance abuse etc etc, all the things I worry about for my daughter ?
Therefore, to treat all muslims in the US and UK, as though they are about to embark on a holy war is inaccurate and unhelpful in the development of relationships where we can share the gospel and proclaim Christ as the only way to God.
White Horse Inn has recently done an excellent job in a careful, nuanced way to approaching the Emerging Church (even interviewing Stanley Grenz and Brian Maclaren), we need to do the same with Islam. I do wonder if the difficulty people have in doing this is related to their lack of contact with muslims, as opposed to being able to relate to those involved in the Emerging Church.
Colin
I know there are lots of stories about islamic terrorism and heckling, (particuarly in the Daily Telegraph) and of course the authorities need to act decisively.
Didn't they release all those arrested in the Borough raid in London ?
If ever you come to Birmingham, I will show you around !!
Colin