Thursday
Mar172011
No Surprise -- Most Evangelicals Leaders Are Premillennial
Thursday, March 17, 2011 at 11:45AM 
A recent poll of evangelical leaders shows that 65% of evangelical leaders identity themselves as premillennial. No surprise in that statistic--that percentage is about what I would have guessed.
Of those polled, 13% are amillennial, 4% are postmillennial, while 17% hold to "other" views (whatever those unspecified views might be).
You can find the news story here. Eschatology Poll
In any case, there are a whole bunch of premillennarians who still need convincing! Start here: Amillennial Resources, and then go here: More Amillennial Resources.
Reader Comments (10)
Most of the so called "non-denominational" churches (which are really not non-denominational because they have a statement of faith on the back of their church bulletins) would be in either of the Pentacostal or Southern Baptist camps--although they do not realize it.
Most of the 65% also do not baptize infants (even though the church has practiced it throughout N.T. history).
Most of the 65% believe in the false doctrine of the "age of accountability" in the baptism of infants, not realizing that the age of accountability started as St. Paul states in Romans five, when Adam fell into original sin. David says in Psalm 51 that he was conceived in sin, and St. Paul says that we are by nature children of wrath.
Their "age of accountability" doctrine denies the Biblical doctrine of original sin. Their premillennial stance is not supported by the Scriptures, and is a new teaching, and has Christ coming three times, rather than twice which the Scriptures teach us.
The 65% also don't have any clue of church history whatsoever, and they believe that the church started with their particular movement.
What does infant or adult baptism have to do with millenial views? You seem to also be making assumptions about our premil brothers' (wrong as they are on the milenial issue) views on other issues that sound a little smug/condescending and uncharitable.
By the way your oft repeated view that baptism itself (apart from faith) saves is as little grounded in Scripture as you accuse those 65% of our Christian brothers to be. But you and I have gone back and forth on that one before, so let's not do it again.
You ask, "What does infant or adult baptism have to do with millennial views?" Quite a lot. If a person has a millennial viewpoint on eschatology, they bring that entire hermeneutic into their understanding of the Scriptures.
It affects their understanding of the covenants. How God's plan of redemption works. Original sin. Sin. Grace. What the Sacraments do. In a nut shell; everything.
You twist and take my words out of context when you falsely accuse me of saying that Baptism saves apart from faith.
Now, I am forced to defend my views on Baptism (Lutheran) on this website because others may not be acquanted with the truth of the Sacrament.
Why should others be denied the full blessings of Baptism because you are a "little bit of this, and a little bit of that" christian? In other words, your theology is all over the place.
You previously mentioned on this website in a debate with Pastor Kim and I, that you didn't believe in infant Baptism. So, it is pretty safe to assume (at least as far as your blogs are concerned), that you are more in line with the newer teaching of the ana-baptists and Baptists which is the viewpoint of the 1500's and later. You view Baptism as an act of obedience, something that you do for God, rather than what God does for us.
I'll try to make this quick: Baptism does four things: 1. It creates faith. 2. It sustains faith. 3. It washes away our sins. 4. It gives the Holy Spirit.
You seem to have had a hard time in the past of reading all of my arguments when I stated that not everyone that gets baptized gets saved. You overlook the fact that Baptism is a means of salvation, not the only means.
Lutherans (and the Bible) teach that Baptism and the Word of God saves. The Word of God without Baptism saves. Baptism without the Word DOES NOT SAVE. (Luther called baptismal water without the Word, dead water.)
It should be noted that I have looked up and studied all of the pasages that I am going to cite in the Greek. Lutherans understand the passages on the Sacraments in their natural readings.
We believe that God can do what he says that he can. We believe that God can and does use real earthly elements like bread, wine and water, combined with His Word, to forgive sins, create saving faith and give the Holy Spirit.
We don't need representations, or signs, when God says in His Word that water, bread and wine are the elements that the Holy Spirit works through and are not just symbols thereof. The Holy Spirit works within the sacraments, not along side of them.
God doesn't need us to put the bread and the wine into our mouths (receptionalism) in order for it to be body and blood. The Word that God speaks in the Words of Institution make it thus. He doesn't need my help, thank you.
Lutherans don't bypass the physical to get to the spiritual, where the physical is not the reality, but the thought world is (in the Supper), when Gods Word says not to.
Who should be baptized? Matt. 28:19 says, Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
All nations means all people, young and old. Children are included in the command all nations. All nations is a general command, and therefore should be taken generally. (A command should be taken generally unless it specifically limits it, and this does not.) It doesn't say all nations and women, but women are baptized. It doesn't say all nations and Germans, but the Germans are baptized. The same applies to children. It is a general command.
There is no age requirement for baptism taught in the Bible. Everyone needs to be baptized because everyone is a sinner from the time of Adam (Romans 5).
The Bible does not teach "the age of accountability" for baptism or anything else. Biblical "age of accountability" is St. Paul stating that we are by nature "children of wrath." David says in Psalm 51 "in sin my mother conceived me." St. Paul says that original sin (for all of us) came with Adam (Romans 5).
In Acts 2:38-39, St. Peter says that baptism is for "you and your children."
Baptism (combined with the Word) washes away sins and gives the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 & 39, Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgivenes of your sins. And you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children." This passage teaches us that God uses baptism as a means to forgive sins and to give the Holy Spirit. (And, even our children get these gifts!)
St. Paul was instructed in Acts 22:16 to "Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away." (Again, baptism is used as a means to wash away sins. Also, notice that he is to "be" baptized, not "get" baptized.)
Galatians 3:27 says, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ." (No mention of age here. When combined with the Word of God, even an infant that is baptized, will be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.)
Romans 6:3-4:, "Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." Notice here, "all of us" who were baptized into Christ. No age is mentioned. Nor is an "age of accountability" instructed for baptism.
Ephesians 5:26 says, "Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word." Again, no mention of age here. The waters of baptism with the Word, cleanses God's church. Look it up in the Greek. Water is water. Word is Word. Simple, easy to read and to understand.
Can a little baby believe the Gospel? Luke 18:15-17 says this, "People were also bringing BABIES to have Jesus touch them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them . But Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not recieve the kingdom of God like a little child, will never enter it."
God created faith in those little babies, just the same way that he does in us; in a miracle. Phil. 1:29: says, "And it was granted unto us to believe...." For us to believe in Christ, is a gift from God, just like it was a gift for those little babies.
John the Baptist leaped in his mother's womb when he heard the word of God (Luke 1:41-44). God, through the Word and the waters of baptism will work faith in a little baby, just like he did for us.
Can baptism save us? Mark 16:16 says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." In Luther's small catechism, question 251 asks, "Is it possible for an unbaptized person to be saved?" "It is only unbelief that condemns. Faith cannot exist in the heart of a person who despises and rejects Baptism against better knowledge. But those who believe the Gospel, yet die before they have opportunity to be baptized are not condemed."
1 Peter 3:20 & 21 says this, "because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you."
Romans 3:4, Luther's favorite verse says that God is true and every man is a liar. We have to believe God in His Word, when He says that he uses His Word along with water (yes in the Greek, water is water, Word is Word and Spirit is Spirit) to create faith, wash away sins and give the Holy Spirit.
There is a boat load of many, many blessings and gifts that God gives us in the sacrament of Baptism. A lot more than the Baptism of reg and his shallow, and un-biblical view of it.
Luther always thought sacramentally for comfort in his life. He always looked to the promises in Baptism. Is there any wonder why?
Simple, easy stuff to understand. Just take God at His Word. Because God is true and every man a liar!
Calvary Chapel Statement of Faith
We believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which is His personal, visible return to earth and the establishment of His millennial kingdom, in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment and eternal blessing of the righteous and endless separation of the wicked. (Matthew 16:27; Acts 1:11; Revelation 19:11-16, 20:11-15)
Baptist Faith and Message
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Isaiah 2:4; 11:9; Matthew 16:27; 18:8-9; 19:28; 24:27,30,36,44; 25:31-46; 26:64; Mark 8:38; 9:43-48; Luke 12:40,48; 16:19-26; 17:22-37; 21:27-28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:11; 17:31; Romans 14:10; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 15:24-28,35-58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Philippians 3:20-21; Colossians 1:5; 3:4; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 5:1ff.; 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.; 2; 1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:1,8; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:27-28; James 5:8; 2 Peter 3:7ff.; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; Jude 14; Revelation 1:18; 3:11; 20:1-22:13.
To be honest i'm not sure how one can confuse the two. Please explain.
Jim
I referred to Southern Baptists, not Baptists. Baptists as a whole believe all sorts of doctrines. An example would be that some Baptists are five point Calvinists, while others lean more to the Arminian side of things.
Some Baptists are premillennial dispensational, while others are amillennial. Some Baptists refer to themselves as Reformed Baptists, which they are not, as even Pastor Kim has said as much. (You can't be a Reformed Baptist.)
All Baptists hold to the same views on Baptism, (mostly as an act of obedience). Baptists do not view baptism as a means of grace, and they do not believe in infant baptism.
Baptists believe in an age of accoutability before baptism. The Reformed, Lutherans and almost all Christians held to infant Baptistm for the first 1500 years of the N.T. church, almost without exception. (Issues, Etc. has some great stuff on the history of Baptism.)
Baptists do not receive the true body and blood in the Lord's Supper, but only the bread and the wine. Baptists do not view the Lord's Supper as a Sacrament where it is a means of grace for the forgiveness of sins.
Calvary Chapel, all Baptists (including Southern Baptists) hold to the same viewpoint on the Sacraments.
Southern Baptists and Calvary Chapel are both full fledged premillennial dispensationalists.
At Calvary Chapel Bible College, they use the Southern Baptist theologian J. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come" as their main book on eschatology. Their main teachings are from Dallas Theological Seminary.
Chuck Smith and Raul Ries have taken the seven year tribulation period a step further by stating that "carnal" Christians (those that are not keeping the commandments) will have to go through the seven year tribulation period. (This is nothing more than a seven year purgatory.)
Calvary Chapel and the Southern Baptists hold to the same viewpoints on the Sacraments and eschatology. The Southern Baptists do not believe in the "charismatic" gifts (tongues, etc.), but Calvary Chapel does.
Because Calvary Chapel believes in the same things as the Southern Baptists, with the exception of the "charismatic" gifts (with their afterglow services and the like), they are in both the Southern Baptist and the Pentacostal camps.
What is interesting is that most Calvary Chapel pastors do not believe that Calvary Chapel is a non-denominational church body, as Chuck Smith claims that it is. They will tell you that Calvary Chapel has more rules and restrictions than most orgnized church bodies do. Because of this, many Calvary Chapel pastors effectionately refer to Chuck Smith as "Pope Chuck."
Most of the non-denominational churches (the big box churches) take their teachings from either the Southern Baptists or the Pentacostal churches. (Or both.)
I hope this helps. I am on my way to a church council meeting.
Blessings,
I didn't say that Dallas Theological Seminary was a Southern Baptist seminary. Dallas Theological is the hub of dispensational theology. It is the place to go for Southern Baptist pastors to learn it. It is the Yankee stadium for the dipsy's.
Dwight Pentecost is the foremost teacher of it. He taught at Dallas Theological Seminary. Southern Baptist pastors learned the dispensational system from him.
Go to Shadowmountain.org, the home of Southern Baptist preacher David Jeremiah, and look at his statement of faith. Dispensational, waiting for the rapture stuff.
Dallas Theological Seminary is the seminary for such dispensational stalwart hall of famers such as John Walvord, Charles Ryrie and J. Vernon McGee.
If you are going to a Southern Baptist church or a Calvary Chapel and expecting anything but dispensational theology you will be wasting your time.
I'm finished talking on this issue. You will have to research it on your own.
Best wishes,
Baptist Faith and Message
God, in His own time and in His own way, will bring the world to its appropriate end. According to His promise, Jesus Christ will return personally and visibly in glory to the earth; the dead will be raised; and Christ will judge all men in righteousness. The unrighteous will be consigned to Hell, the place of everlasting punishment. The righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive their reward and will dwell forever in Heaven with the Lord.
Now read from the Calvary Chapel statement:
Calvary Chapel Statement of Faith
We believe in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ which is His personal, visible return to earth and the establishment of His millennial kingdom, in the resurrection of the body, the final judgment and eternal blessing of the righteous and endless separation of the wicked.
Notice the distinction between the two. CC statement communicates Jesus Christ will return and establish His millennial kingdom. The is premillennialism. The Baptist Faith and Message communicates when Christ returns He is returning with judgement. I don't know how it can be stated any clearer.
Do you see what distinguishes the two?
You say you know of a Southern Baptist pastor that is premillennial. That doesn't make the convention premillennial. I know Lutherans that deny atonement. It would be fallacious to say that all Lutherans deny the atonement. What I would say is "those goes aren't being very good Lutherans."
I'm not sure what your gripe against the SBC is but attacking strawmen isn't helpful. It just causes you to lose credibility.
Just wondering if Dr. Patterson and other dispy SBC leaders have ever Googled "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty," "Pretrib Rapture Pride," and "Pretrib Rapture Stealth." The last item has enough passages from Acts etc. to blow the pretrib rapture all the way back to 1830 and to the doorstep in Scotland of Margaret Macdonald!