Who Said That?

"Furthermore, [we reject the error] that original sin is only an external impediment to man's good spiritual powers and not the complete deprivation or loss of the same, just as garlic juice, smeared on a magnet, impedes but does not remove the natural powers of the magnet."

Have fun with this one!  Leave your guess in the comments section below.  Answer to follow next week.  No google searches or cheating.

Update on Saturday, March 14, 2009 at 05:16PM by Kim Riddlebarger

This one is for all my Lutheran friends.  As many of you guessed, this comes from the Formula of Concord, The Epitome, part one, antitheses (# 5).  It is found in the Book of Concord, Tappart ed, 468.

Comments

[Nick]

I'm Catholic, but I'm pretty sure that comes from one of the major Lutheran Confessions, I think from the Augsburg Confession.
I came across that quote as I was writing up my apologetics article against Sola Fide.

[Phil B]

Some Westminster Seminary California bloke mentions this in a book he keeps trying to flog.

Is it the Book of Concord?

[Philip Walker]

Yep, that's something from the Book of Concord.

[George]

Yes, the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration, Section I. Original Sin, Paragraph 6 under "Pelagian and Manichaean Errors." A group of confessional Lutherans within the LCMS is in the process of reading through the Lutheran Confessions and we just passed that one.

(although, this quote was taken from the "Epitome," not the Solid Declaration)

[Coyle]

Hmm... the consensus seems to be that it's Lutheran. I'll go with "Martin Luther", just as a catch-all. Besides, smearing garlic on a magnets sounds like something he'd have done. Probably right after he threw the inkwell at the devil :)

[George]

Technically, the Formula of Concord was given its final form largely by Jacob Andreae, Martin Chemnitz, and Nicholas Selnecker, after Luther. Also, the Augsburg Confession and its apology were written by Luther's friend Philip Melanchthon. All of these, along with the Small and Large Catechisms and Smalcald Articles, penned by Luther himself, are contained within the confessional Lutheran document known as the "Book" of Concord.

[Brant]

Why would a catholic come to this site? Faith plus works - good luck with that, as you stand before God bragging about yourself.

[John Yeazel]

So, I gather what this person is saying is that original sin is not like garlic juice but is like something that totally cuts off the powers of the magnet-right? So, man has no good spiritual powers (man being the magnet). I was not aware that garlic juice impeded the powers of magnets. I wonder why they would want to impede the powers of magnets? That must have been common knowledge back then.

It does sound like a Lutheran response to the Catholic position on original sin in the medieval church. I'll go Melanchthon rather than Luther though. He probably did scientific experiments more than Luther would. The myth is that Melanchthon was more into reason than Luther was and therefore closer to the Reformed position on many theological issues- but that may be a myth too.

Like I said on Scott Clark's site the issues between Lutherans and Calvinists are like underlying issues in families that never get dealt with. The issues control the dynamics of the relationships in the family but no one really wants to confront them and talk about them even though they may cause some severe problems later on down the road.

[Vaughan]

<i>Why would a catholic come to this site? Faith plus works - good luck with that, as you stand before God bragging about yourself.</i>

And the reason that the Catholic will probably remain a Catholic is attitudes like this.

Sheesh.

[John Yeazel]

Vaughan,

Personally, I would like to hear some Catholics doctrinal positions on this site. I commend him for having the guts to come on this site. He might get ripped apart here but if he has the guts to present doctrinal positions I would gladly hear them. Luther was always willing to debate with his adversaries and protagonists. I wish it would happen more frequently.

[Brant]

And another reason the catholic will remain a catholic is because Sheesh boy hasn't any good reason why the catholic should not remain such. No doubt he's one of those, let's just love Jesus and not worry about anything else.


oy

[Vaughan]

"Personally, I would like to hear some Catholics doctrinal positions on this site. I commend him for having the guts to come on this site. He might get ripped apart here but if he has the guts to present doctrinal positions I would gladly hear them. Luther was always willing to debate with his adversaries and protagonists. I wish it would happen more frequently."

Absolutely.

I was arguing against Brant's attitude, which does nothing more than promote angst from the get-go.

And no, Brant, I'm not one of those "let's just love Jesus and not worry about anything else." But I am one of those "And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth."

[Aaron]

Augsberg confession

[reg]

Brant, "Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." Colossians 4:5-6.

[Coyle]

Vaughan and John Y.

I totally agree, it's always interesting and challenging to hear what thoughtful Catholics have to say. After spending the last few years at Catholic University, I've definitely come to appreciate the subtlety of the Catholic position.
Actually, this quote- whoever it's from :) -is a great place to start a conversation with a Catholic. If man is completely unable, then salvation must come completely from God. But, if man is not completely unable, then justification could be (like Catholic theology teaches) by faith and love, not grace alone.

[Lloyd]

Here is the quote out of the Book of Concord, Readers Edition, Formula, Epitome, under negative statements, number 5, "We reject the teaching that original sin is only an outward obstacle to the good spiritual powers and not a spoiling or lack of the powers. It is not like when a magnet is smeared with garlic juice, and its natural power is not removed, but only blocked; or when a stain can be easily wiped away, like a spot from the face or paint from a wall."

[Jason]

Interesting side note - the idea that the smell of garlic interfered with the action of magnets goes all the way back to Pliny, and it wasn't tested and debunked until 1646. Wilder yet: Pliny may have simply written that the action of one magnet was impeded by another, and the Greek for "other" was miscopied early on as "garlic".

[Brant]

reg - uh, no

[John Yeazel]

I stated that Luther was always willing to debate his adversaries and protagonists. It should be antagonists not protagonists. I did that on purpose to see if anyone would correct me (not really). I spend way too much time on these web sites.