Did Anybody Else Watch This?

It is the custom in our home that on Christmas morning I get up early, build a rip-roaring fire, make the coffee, and get ready for the family Christmas (which I celebrate with my wife and two sons).

While I was enjoying the fire and waiting for the sleepy-heads to get up (we were all zonked from our Christmas Eve service and a late night at my mother-in-laws', and my sons just finished up their finals, so they were pretty fried), I made the mistake of turning on the TV.  I had heard about recent terrorist threats, so I wanted to check the news.  I turned on Fox news only to see Rick Warren at Saddleback.

Did anyone else see this?  It was absolutely awful.  Apparently, I've misunderstood the meaning of Christmas.  I thought it had something to do with the Incarnation and with Jesus coming to save me from my sins.  No, Jesus came to give me purpose and to give Rick Warren slogans.  Warren did not preach from a text.  He repeatedly turned gospel into law.  He spoke in clichés and referred to his "peace" plan over and over.  It was the worst bunch of self-promotion in a pulpit I have ever seen.  Don't even start me on the "worship service," or whatever that abomination was . . . 

And no, my objections are not that of the typical cranky Reformed guy looking down his nose on evangelicals.  There was no "evangel" at all.  Even the liberal Episcopalians doing "Lessons and Carols" (which I watched before I went to bed on Christmas Eve) came closer to the gospel and the true meaning of Christmas than did Warren, the "Bible-believing" evangelical pastor.  It was awful . . . 

I hope Fox news sticks with the news and doesn't ever do this again.  I reluctantly turned on CNN and then gave thanks that terrorists did not attack.

After I turned off the TV in disgust, we enjoyed our family Christmas!  No thanks to Rick Warren and Fox news.

Comments

[walt]

Drat. HTML tags aren't working.

"We aren't quite the fundamentalist type, but we sure are no longer fond of evangelical churches.
I just can't believe the number of pastors that have fallen for Warrenism, hook, line and sinker. "

Check out www.opc.org and http://www.covenant-urc.org/urchrchs.html.

[terriergal]

My hubby and I took four pages of notes on the message and hope to expand on it soon. (busy busy) And my husband writes very small.

[Tyler]

Wow, look how many posts for a topic on Ricky Baby! That's the key to success right there, just talk about Warren!

[Jon]

I watched the presentation by Pastor Warren and enjoyed it very much. Traditional Christmas hymns were performed well, and the Christmas message was presented loud and clear. I think we need to be careful not to split hairs on the finer details of practics in ministry. Paul sums it up well in 1 Timothy 1:4-6:

Don’t let them waste their time in endless discussion of myths and spiritual pedigrees. These things only lead to meaningless speculations,[a] which don’t help people live a life of faith in God.[b]
5 The purpose of my instruction is that all believers would be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and genuine faith. 6 But some people have missed this whole point. They have turned away from these things and spend their time in meaningless discussions.

[zrim]

faithful,

i think you missed *my* point. you seem to want to argue the details of abortion and how they stack up against a christian confession. that's another issue entirely. (i am more politically conservative on that issue than even ol' W, but would have no problem voting for a guy who disgareed on that issue if i perceived others as being more important.)

my point is the careless mixing of religion and politics and that it seems that to some it is ok when some do it but not others. was it ok for brownback to address saddleback?

furthermore, is it really the Church's job to take on all the issues or to remain pure to Her only mission, namely the Gospel why do some issues get God's verdict (as perceived by people) and others do not?

in general, i must admit that i do not have it all figured out as you seem to have. you seem to understand right well just what a "christian ought to think/conclude about this or that issue." i am not at all sure what you mean by his church being "racist" or "egocentric." those are pretty loaded terms--what do you mean by them? my hunch is that they may be employed to lend "punch" to your general disagreement with him.

i should add that i read an excerpt of obama's book recently concerning religion. i would feel pretty safe in concluding that he and i (being confessionally reformed) are quite different with regard to just what the term christian means. i don't base that on what he thinks about abortion but on cultic truth, etc. my sense of it is that he seems real cozy with what i deem classic Liberal theology and a sort of secularized christianity; he certainly would have a lot of explaining to do if he sought membership in the church on which i sit as elder. but i would still vote for him if i thought him best for the job.

"Yes, God is DEFINITELY on one side or the other of particular issues."

so, what does God think of darfur, standardized student testing, the poverty line, mimimum wage laws? there are just so many issues to solve here. perhaps it is best for the Church to put the Gospel on the shelf and get cracking on declaring things where God has not declared them?

zrim

[Tyler]

Jon, that's a horrible translation. Is that the Message?

[Fred]

Shallow, ambiguous, incomplete, self centered, self promoting, dialectical= diabolical. That was the program in a nutshell. Other than that , it was entertaining.

[Darren Sapp]

Walt: I am sure that everone on this thread watched Warren's sermon in its entirety with a completely unbiased view.

Faithful: I don't have the transcript. I watched it and was watching specifically for all of the elements of the Gospel because I was curious if it would happen. I have been critical in the past of Joel Osteen and Rick Warren dancing around the Gospel. Well in this case, he clearly did present all of the key elements of the Bible. Dead in our sin. Christ died for our sin. Salvation in Him alone.

[zrim]

darren,

that one may have heard something akin to the gospel makes these sorts of issues all the more muddied.

when the backdrop to an occassional "hit" seems to contradict what is being said in the "hit" i always find it just down-right confusing. to me, it tends to be the tip-of-the-hat approach a wink and a nod. it is no where near good enough--not even close.

to be blunt, one who presumes to speak on behalf of Christ and His Gospel must always do it, not on occassion. God is a jealous God and will share His glory with no one and with nothing else. we cannot be at once lovers of God and money, as it were. things are not all right just because he may get it right here and there while everywhere else it's a travesty.

i watched rick on fox and meet the press. i did so with an admiitedly very bias perspective. i am not at all ashamed to admit that because there is much to be said for being discerning and taking what one already knows into an interpretation. while i have very little to no use for a lot of the witch-hunting (i will mention no blogs or names!) that goes on over figures like warren and osteen, etc., etc. i am no defender of these types. they are *clearly* a part of the problem, if not the problem itself in many ways. nope, not nearly good enough, darren, not even close.

zrim

[Rather be hot or cold.]

I'd rather be hot or cold. That's it in a nutshell. Was the "Gospel" being shared by Rick Warren during the Christmas service? Perhaps in a "light" version. Someone may have even asked Christ into their heart that day, but where is the growth in this seeker-friendly environment? Not in the individual believer, but in the numbers of people who come into the building and sign the cards. Very disheartening to know that new believers are being "hooked," but not fed. We belonged to one of the early offshoot churches to Saddleback, pastored by a personal friend of Rick Warren's. Bibles were on every third or fourth chair, and on the rare occasion when we were asked to refer to the Bible, we were told what page to turn to. When our small groups met, we read and discussed Christian books, not God's Word. An intense exchange with our pastor about the choosing of leadership for our church body (God's Word versus the book, Purpose Driven Church, which our pastor encouraged us to read every time we brought up scripture) finally brought us to the realization that we needed to move on. We were definitely resisters and our pastor was following the "book," Rick's book!! I believe from the bottom of my heart that Rick Warren is the pied piper of the Laodicean church. While we can all agree this is a very sad time in the Church Age, for those who are following Bible prophecy, we know it is to be expected. We need to hold Rick Warren and all of those he is leading astray up in prayer. I know some very strong Christians within our old fellowship who do not feel released to leave. They are trying to make a difference. Pray for all of those who hang in there to minister some truth!!

God bless each of you who reads this.

[roadwearyexpastor]

Quite frankly, there is a clearer presentation of the Gospel in Twisted Sister's rendition of, "O' Come, All Ye Faithful"...sigh...I wish I was kidding.

[Esther]

Thank you, Robin, for the Saddleback church finder website:

http://www.thepeaceplan.com/search.aspx?zip=92835&range=20&page=0

I'm astonished at the churches that are "infected" in my area.

[Mattumanu]

>>Rick Warren clearly presented the Gospel on that broadcast. He defined sin, that problem sin presents and how Christ overcame that sin. Your bias against Rick Warren has rendered you deaf and blind.<<

No, the problem with Rick Warren's presentation of the Gospel is this: He says, "Jesus Died on the Cross for you, now it's UP TO YOU TO..."

Decision Theology. The biggest single heresy of our time. That's right, I said heresy. So sue me.

[beenthere]

I watched the Purpose of Christmas on Fox News. I realized immediately that his choice of services was the traditional service...far removed from anything near his singing the rendition of Purple Haze or perhaps having Smity do his rapper's rendition of Filled with the Spirit thereby demonstrating the dance, the Burning Bush or maybe even the Two by Two amidst all the emergent schemes. No, this time he did us all a favor and did as near a normal service as he possibly could to tone down the critics. You do all know of course that at Saddleback you have choices…you know sort of like Pick a Service of your liking. If you are hip, you might choose a hip service…there you can exhibit all your piercings and tattoos, lots of skin, etc. Then if you are traditional, you might wear your suits and ties, dresses and heels…you know the type. I did notice that he didn’t wear the Hawaiian shirt this time…so I know I am right. He had the traditional service even complete with the sportscoat, but he didn’t wear the tie. It just isn’t his style I guess. Now…for the service itself: give the devil his dues. He is a good motivational speaker…that really sums it up. That is what he does…he makes you feel good. But don’t confuse feeling good with a conversion…salvation. It is the difference between going to heaven and going to hell. That is the problem here. As far as entertainment on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day for all of us to see…it wasn’t bad. Basically, between the entertainment and the motivational speech…that was about it. It all depends of what you were expecting. I got what I expected…not much. This man has desecrated Christianity as we have known it.

[Bill]

I have been to a few seeker sensitive services and saw (as well as read) a few sermons from Rick Warren.

They just show you a bit of the gospel, enough to get away with deceiving people. There is certainly a vestige of christianity, but it's an amputated christianity or a new religion that misuses the name of Christ in its preaching. I did sense a strange spirit at work in all seeker sensitive services. Wolves in sheep's clothing,would describe well the seeker sensitive church growth movement.

[nicole]

i didnt see the show, can anyone tell me if Rick gave an altar call for salvation at the end?

[Douglas]

"i didnt see the show, can anyone tell me if Rick gave an altar call for salvation at the end?"

nicole,

how many people are actually born again at altar calls? Altar calls are an addition to Scripture aren't they and no doubt have generated many a false convert over the years. Also, what good would an altar call do after one of Rick Warren's speeches, he doesn't preach the true gospel does he? Rick Warren says he doesn't do altar calls I remember reading somewhere, here it is:
( http://www.pastors.com/RWMT/?id=272&artid=7485&expand=1 ) He uses cards. Tick the card and say his rote prayer and hey presto you are now a Christian according to Rick warren and he welcomes you into the family of God. See page 58-59 of the Purpose Driven Life for the prayer Rick Warren gets people to pray.

BTW, I think what Rick Warren says in the above is "a shocker" to say the least. He is such a clever smooth tongued deceiver in my opinion. He has the ability of making the Bible say what "he" thinks it says rather than the gift of teaching what God's word actually says so that people can clearly understand the meaning (Neh. 8). Rick Warren obscures the true meaning of Scripture. Rick Warren has redefined Christianity.

Here is some information on decisional regeneration, altar calls, coming forward, walking the aisle, closing eyes, raising hands, nodding heads and such things (no beating of chests or weeping and wailing or falling on ones face in the dust of the carpet, or unable to look heaven-wards in utter repentant brokeness for sinning against the God who is thrice times holy and totally awesome) that go on in the church today, are they biblical? Are they really reaching the lost? >>>>>

18 December, 2006 Modern Synergism

Count On Churches To Conduct Christmas Convert Counting

Bundling the Gospel in Broadway type stage entertainment has become the megachurch norm at Christmas time. The Thomas Road church has their's shrink-wrapped and for sale http://trbc.e-vent.info/TRBC/3.0/Storefront/ProductDetails.aspx?Model=201 on DVD already. If this year's holiday season is anything like last year, we can expect to see the CGM blogs light-up with trophy-like claims of salvation stats. Should these churches be so quick to count converts, and boast about the numbers of people who were "most certainly saved" at their Christmas productions? Here's a look back on a post from last year at this time; it explores the claims, concept, and counting of "decisions for Christ" - today's measure of ministry success. ... [Read Link]
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.184?CFID=261381&CFTOKEN=29048792

You will have to spend some quaility time studying the information provided in the above article and links to get to the truth of the matter, not a light read I'm afraid to say, very sobering and very sad indeed.

[zrim]

walt wondered,

"Your point about abortion is curious. The job of government is to punish wrongdoers. Murder is one of the things government should punish, right? Just because the babies are still in the womb doesn't mean they're not alive. Instead, our government gives it's blessing to the murder of babies. It also violates Genesis 9:6."

let me say, walt, again that i have very conservative politics when it comes to this topic. i consider myself even more conservative than W. you don't have to convince me morally OR politically here. but, that said, unlike most who share my political views i do not froth at the mouth over it; i am not at all sympathetic to the rhetoric that elevates this issue to the level of Gospel an din fact see it as a major stumbling block to those who would otherwise seek to advance the pure Gospel. and i consider it just one in a host of other temporal issues. it is a this-worldly concern. inasmuch as it is a temporal issue i allow for my views to be possibly wrong.

"We, as Christians, do have some duty to be involved in culture. I think this article gives a good Reformed position on the issue:
http://www.kerux.com/documents/KeruxV11N1A4.asp"

we have *every* duty to be involved in culture, not just some. i have read that piece by vandrunen before and foun dit helpful, yes. and i really enjoyed his monograph on natural law. my concern is that we obscure the gospel by our cultural conclusions. i had my particular views on abortion before conversion, so these views are not somehow exclusively christian. when i say it obscures the gospel i mean that we raise it to the level of gospel; we alienate those who may have other views when we link it up so closely to the gospel.

zrim

[zrim]

debbie wondered,

"Obama, who ardently supports killing babies, spoke from the pulpit of a very influential "evangelical" church. Would it be okay for Warren to have the grand master of the KKK or Osama bin Laden speak from his pulpit--for a "good" cause??? Would that be acceptable to you?"

like i told walt, you don't have to convince me, debbie, on the conclusions over abortion. i am very conservative myself. you use a lot of what i consider loaded rhetoric in your question ("killing babies, KKK and osama"), but i will answer for the sake of discussion: no, that would not be acceptable. but you miss my point. asking freaks into your pulpit is a no-brainer. where the rubber meets the road is whether you will ask a nice, clean-cut and good citizen into your pulpit who wants the concerns of God to move over and forward nice, clean-cut and well behaved morals and politics.

"I don't consider myself to be a Republican or a Democrat, so the political labels don't matter all that much to me--but God's morals mean a lot to me. Like the Good Book says, "Bad company corrupts good morals."

yes, i have heard that one before: "God is not a republican or a democrat." it's a tired and sorry phrase when the meta-messages in the background say the exact opposite, debbie. what do you mean "God's morals mean a lot to me"? i can't help but hear some pretty self-righteous undertones.

zrim

[Wayne Rohde]

Personally, I think Kim's recent "article" at The Riddleblog, "Thy Kingdom Come," does a great job of helping us steer our way straight in the matter of kingdom living.

As for Rick Warren and his "purpose-driven" concepts, I'd recommend checking out critiques such as "Redefining Christianity: Understanding the Purpose Driven Life Movement" by Bob DeWaay.

In my estimate, a large part of the problem in "fluff Christianity" relates to what is not proclaimed, as well as what is proclaimed. The vital message of Christ and Him crucified, which is at the heart of the gospel, is simply missing (period, or by way of emphasis and adequate/accurate explanation) in so much that's contemporary.

And speaking of the cross of Christ, and the concept of His substitutionary/sacrificial death, I just picked up the relatively new IVP "Four Views" book on the nature of the atonement, in which Tom Schreiner does a great job of upholding the biblical teaching on the penal nature of Christ's death.

Though it's true that the cross of Christ also defeats Satan and delivers saints, it's sad that the objective nature of Christ's death is so often attacked, neglected, etc. Haven't we all sinned? Isn't the wages of sin death? Didn't Jesus bear our sins and die in our place? And can't we rightly say that w/o the shedding of blood --the blood of the spotless Lamb of God-- there is no forgiveness?

God's people need to return to the fundamentals of the faith, including the truths of I Cor. 2:2; 15:3,4; etc. ... and loudly proclaim this message of hope in Christ alone!