Did Anybody Else Watch This?
Tuesday, December 26, 2006 at 11:02AM 
It is the custom in our home that on Christmas morning I get up early, build a rip-roaring fire, make the coffee, and get ready for the family Christmas (which I celebrate with my wife and two sons).
While I was enjoying the fire and waiting for the sleepy-heads to get up (we were all zonked from our Christmas Eve service and a late night at my mother-in-laws', and my sons just finished up their finals, so they were pretty fried), I made the mistake of turning on the TV. I had heard about recent terrorist threats, so I wanted to check the news. I turned on Fox news only to see Rick Warren at Saddleback.
Did anyone else see this? It was absolutely awful. Apparently, I've misunderstood the meaning of Christmas. I thought it had something to do with the Incarnation and with Jesus coming to save me from my sins. No, Jesus came to give me purpose and to give Rick Warren slogans. Warren did not preach from a text. He repeatedly turned gospel into law. He spoke in clichés and referred to his "peace" plan over and over. It was the worst bunch of self-promotion in a pulpit I have ever seen. Don't even start me on the "worship service," or whatever that abomination was . . .
And no, my objections are not that of the typical cranky Reformed guy looking down his nose on evangelicals. There was no "evangel" at all. Even the liberal Episcopalians doing "Lessons and Carols" (which I watched before I went to bed on Christmas Eve) came closer to the gospel and the true meaning of Christmas than did Warren, the "Bible-believing" evangelical pastor. It was awful . . .
I hope Fox news sticks with the news and doesn't ever do this again. I reluctantly turned on CNN and then gave thanks that terrorists did not attack.
After I turned off the TV in disgust, we enjoyed our family Christmas! No thanks to Rick Warren and Fox news.
Reader Comments (97)
In the words of Bob Dylan (concept by God), each of us is going to have to serve somebody. . .it may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but we're going to have to serve somebody.
This issue is not about Rick Warren, but about who he is serving. This is a spiritual battle, not a denominational battle.
As warriors in this battle, we are called to put on our full armor each day and our weapons of choice are His Word and spending time on our knees in prayer.
We can debate this issue and point out all of Rick Warren's faults and responsibilities until we are blue in the face, but until we are willing to suit up and go into the battle, we need to look in the mirror and remove that log out of our eye!
hot or cold, while i think you begin to make some relatively useful points, i am confused by this: "That being said, I can assure you that people are being saved," especially after you concede that he peddles a watered down gospel. how are people "being saved" if they are being given something less than or other than the Gospel? i am also confused by your confidence that true conversions are taking place. how can you be so, so sure?
like i said before, i have little to no use for the witch-hunty tone and tenor of much of the critiques of warren, but if you really seem to be suggesting a low view between the visible and invisible. that is, "ok, so he preaches it wrong...but people are being regenerated." huh? through what means, some magic cosmic snap of the fingers? God has ordained *means* to accomplish His Gospel.
there's preaching poorly/weakly/foolishly and there's preaching falsely. no one is calling for perfection per se, but there is a great deal of difference between that and getting it flat wrong. you either do it right (with a mixture of imperfection within) or you don't. lines must be drawn and well.
zrim
I got saved when I got convicted by the damage my sinful life brought me to in 1995 and then discerned by the Holy Spirit a preaching of error at Saddleback by Rick. He main goal is to be popular and to help people mainly here and now. This is a crossless "Christianity"/ When you preach the truth of dying and being resurrected in Christ, the masses of self-centered baby boomers run like the dickens. This infused self centerism is in my flesh too and God has been dealing with it in me day by day and it has not been fun. But it has been blessed when I let go of my control and surrender more and more of my life over to Him!! But the discpleship life of daily dying to self does not fit in with the USA and the Worlds New Age Humanism. So Rick to be popular created a New version of the "gospel" to attrack people to churc. The Bible says to lift Jesus up and He builds His Church. So this is really where Rick is off. We don't build the Church. We preach the True Gospel and some believe and most don't. It is indeed a narrow gate where God calls his chosen ones to die to self and live in Him!! Interesting to think: if people come to "church" because of Rick's watered down message and never really learn about God and His Holiness and about their utter sinfulness so as to be amazed by Grace, Whey then would they enjoy being in God's Prescence forever in Heaven where God will be supremely in control!!?? The New Age Heaven is here, as man uses his abilities, given to him by god, to fix the world. The bible says this world will soon go down in flames.
The True Gospel convicts and saves people from their sins for true salvation, but it doesn't fix the world. Only judgment in fire will do that. Dave Parrihs
Kim's studies on eschatology and the two kingdoms do excellent work to establish sound, Biblical Christian thinking in these important matters.
What a horrid mistake to assume historic, Reformed theology is not "practical!"
I wish everybody could have enjoyed Christ Reformed Church's Christmas Eve service. How glorious it was to hear The Story of stories and receive the one Best Gift; reflecting not on ourselves but on Jesus Christ! What a treasure to know that Christmas is TRUE and REAL!
Being in the presence of Christ while the Word is rightly proclaimed arrests the hearers and leaves them in a state of receiving. What creature can "do" anything in the court of the King?!
Thank you Pastor Kim for fighting for what is truly practical! Nourishment for our souls.
Sorry. I'm glad I refrained from putting up my dukes. You're not the easiest guy to understand. I think the VanDrunen piece is very good, and very helpful for me. I usually try not to argue against abortion from the Bible. I usually try to make a common sense case that abortion is murder and shouldn't be allowed. I also agree that the issue shouldn't trump the Gospel. Abortion is so repugnant for Christians that we tend to get fixated on it a lot.
zrim
Let me ask those that think that the political issue abortion is somehow a thing for the Church to take up, that no good Christian has views different from a “conservative” one, that a Christian confession can be finally decided by how one views this political issue, this question: did true Christians 200 years ago in North America own slaves? I say they did. But some Christians in that time would have had people believe that “we have no place with hypocrites. No true Christian can own a human slave or think that the institution of human slavery is legitimate and be considered genuine.” They sat on moral high horses and were quite at ease declaring what God did not about human slavery. That was their own Christian conscience which told them it was wrong. And before we get too superior by using our own well established hindsight and contemporary morality concerning human slavery, we should remember that these things are not so easily solved. Back then it was a contentious social and political issue. It wasn’t so black and white as we presume today. What about the sufferage movement of the early 20th century or the civil rights issue of the 60’s?
It will not sit well with some to use the word, but I find the idea that in order to evaluate one’s Christian confession one need only look to a cultural or social issue really very obnoxious. In the same way, I find it obnoxious to say that a Christian cannot have another political view on our contemporary issue called abortion (we Protestants allow for various conclusions on the death penalty and birth control, right? Why is it any different for abortion?). Like I said, I have what would be deemed very conservative political views here. but I don’t claim my views to be ultimately right (cultural endeavor). I have every confidence that my views on free will, grace, faith and the Atonement, for example, are (cultic endeavor). I could be wrong about abortion, but I doubt it enough to be at once well persuaded that my views are correct and yet not Gospel. intelligent people can, in fact, disagree with how the natural template of Law is carried out in the wider world. But they cannot disagree on cultic doctrines.
And to the idea that we are to be fully engaged in culture, I agree. But if you translate that into a crusade against abortion (or for gay marriage, as some conservative Christians seem to want to do) you can, by the arguments of natural law, join efforts with those from any myriad of religious and cultural persuasions. It is not an exclusively Christian endeavor to politically stomp out abortion. And don’t presume upon any individual or the Church proper that the charge is to join up. If one’s Christian conscience is so persuaded then so be it and all the more power to him or her. And if you think that the Church’s charge is to stomp out abortion you have just told Christ’s Gospel to move over just a hair, please; you have made effort to borrow the authority of God which is meant only for the Gospel and lend it to the interests and traditions of men. You have also made way for the case that any cultural problem—from any point on the cultural-political spectrum—is for the Church to solve. Where does it end? It doesn’t. And in that process guess what keeps getting told to take the next seat back? The Gospel, the sole mission of the Church
zrim
My grandson was saved at our former church. And, many others. My grandson was saved when he watched a snippet from a movie about Jesus which was shown during a Easter program. The Easter program was Christianity Light (at its best), but the Holy Spirit was present because our prayer team (consisting of three regular prayer warriors) asked Him to join us during our services. The leader of our prayer team went into the church before service and prayed over every chair -- she did this week after week and suffered great humiliation. But, her concern was for those being led astray, not for herself or her pride. It paid off at that time. Now, all three prayer warriors have been released and I can't really tell you what is happening there at this time. I just know my grandson loves the Lord with all his heart and found Him in a PDL church. It is possible!!
In love,
How long do we as reformed believers continue to work with and cooperate with all types of liberalism? Christians in the past were willing the suffer for the truth. Are we willing to do the same?
what do you mean, "he was saved"? i don't have a mean axe to grind or something, i just find a lot of nice lingo in your post but not sure what any of it means. even paul had to be examined by the apostles after his claim to what happened on the way to damascus. i am not so sure what "prayer teams" and "warriors" and movies and praying over chairs has to do with the work of the Spirit. a lot of your post sounds like, "we are because we say we are." has your grandson been confirmed by a legit church body? if so, why isn't *that* what you point to instead of the fact that "he loves the lord with all his heart"? sorry, i just don't get it. what's a PDL church?
zrim
"I believe it is time for all true believers to separate from the ungodliness." i was just reading calvin's chapters on the church last night. the fanatics of his time said the same thing. wheat and tares, wheat and tares...
"How long do we as reformed believers continue to work with and cooperate with all types of liberalism?" ...and conservatism. and last i checked ol' rick wasn't claiming anything close to being reformed.
zrim
The Holy Spirit is present because of a promise by our Lord and Savior to be present wherever his people are gathered in His name. It's not because a prayer team "asked" Him to come.
>>The leader of our prayer team went into the church before service and prayed over every chair -- she did this week after week and suffered great humiliation. But, her concern was for those being led astray, not for herself or her pride.<<
Why would praying over a chair help those being led astray be better than just telling people they are being led astray? Does sitting in a specially annointed chair make a difference for people? Or is it the word that's being preached that makes a difference?
>>It paid off at that time. Now, all three prayer warriors have been released and I can't really tell you what is happening there at this time. I just know my grandson loves the Lord with all his heart and found Him in a PDL church. It is possible!!<<
That's a bit better, but your grandson is saved not because he loves the Lord with all his heart, but because unto a child is born in the city of David, a savior, which is Christ the Lord". A perfect sacrifice by our savior, Christ Jesus, is what did it for everyone; for you, for your grandson, for the whole world.
Now, if this was preached in PDL church, they'd have something. What they WOULDN'T have would be huge numbers of people because the Cross is an offense to them and they'd leave in droves. The idea that we can't do anything to save ourselves, INCLUDING confess our faith by ourselves and desparately need a savior is as offensive as it gets.
PDL church... Purpose Driven Life church.
the point was that just as there are liberals from all types of denominations in the lists of churches that are are PDC's. Why to conservative groups tolerate this type of sinfulness in their groups. If a denomination does not strive to be pure doctrinally why be a part of it. I don't believe this is extremism. why would a southern baptist be grouped with and cooperate financially with this mess. If a southern baptist lives by what he believes he would stop supporting the nonsense.
Also, ol rick sure has influenced some even in reformed groups.
As well, the church is not a political group. No one should be giving political speeches from a pulpit. Again, this is liberalism.
zrim,
respectfully, I suggest you check again because he certainly claimed he is reformed when he gave an interview with Modern Reformation a year or two or three ago. Very reformed in fact, a monergist, so he reckons, and even his great grandaddy was led to the LORD by Mr. truly reformed himself, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, the Prince of Preachers, so Rick should know, eh?
"MR: Does the "Forty Days of Purpose" campaign reflect any particular theological stance or is it theologically neutral?
RW: It is impossible to be theologically neutral. However, it is possible to love, respect, and appreciate the ministry of godly brothers who have theological differences with you. On earth we "see through a glass darkly" so we all need a large dose of humility in dealing with our differences. God's ways are awesome and far beyond human mental capabilities. He has no problem reconciling the supposed theological conflicts that we debate when ideas don't fit neatly into our logical, rational systems (Isa. 58:8-9).
Theologically, I am a monergist and firmly hold to the five solas of the Reformation. It's pretty obvious from the book that I believe in foreknowledge, predestination, (see chapter two, "You Are Not An Accident") and, especially, concurrence -- that God works in and through every detail of our lives, even our sinful choices, to cause his purposes to prevail. Proverbs 19:21 (NIV) is one of my life verses.
But rather than categorize myself with a theological label, I want to be known -- like Jesus -- as "a friend of sinners" and -- like Paul -- as simply "a servant of Jesus Christ." In the past sixteen years, God has allowed me the privilege of helping encourage and train over 300,000 evangelical pastors from a wide spectrum of denominations and 137 different countries. (I am aware that some of my Reformed brothers believe that only they have the right to legitimately be called "evangelicals," and I playfully disagree.)
It's been fascinating to see how people interpret my book through their own theological lenses. On the same day this week I received an email from a Presbyterian brother accusing me of "being an Arminian" and another email from a Lutheran brother criticizing me for being "too Calvinistic!" I just remind myself that even Jesus could not please everyone, and I refocus on living for an audience of One. I'm a fourth-generation Baptist pastor. My great grandfather was led to Christ by Charles Spurgeon, attended Spurgeon's college, and was sent by Spurgeon to America to pastor. So I guess God predestined me to be a Baptist! I would ask readers for grace in three areas:
First, the book contains much of what I believe, but is does not contain ALL of what I believe about any particular doctrine. I actually removed over 400 pages of material that I wrote, but decided not to include. Exhaustive studies exhaust people. The book is a devotional, not a dissertation.
Second, the book is not intended to be a systematic theology. Saddleback's systematic theology is another book called Foundations. It is a nine month doctrinal course, written by Pastor Tom Holladay and my wife Kay, for our congregation. To my knowledge, Saddleback may be the only church in America that requires a nine month systematic theology course for anyone who wants to serve on our staff or as a lay leader in our church. Over 5,000 members have completed Foundations in the past ten years, and we have over 3,000 more members studying the course right now. Saddleback members are doctrinally astute.
Third, the book is about the Christian's walk, not justification. I did include a simple call to Christ in case unbelievers picked up the book (which thousands have). But to know my full view of the doctrines of grace, you'd need to have heard my two year, verse-by-verse exposition through Romans. We've gone through Romans twice since I started Saddleback."
Looking Behind The 'Purpose Driven' Sheep’s Clothing
By Christopher G. Adamo
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/storyPrint.aspx?026d349a-e623-446f-81f0-24a6dfee3b2e
Rick Warren Claims to 'Out-Sacrifice' Jesus Christ
http://www.extremetheology.com/2006/12/rick_warren_cla.html
Isaiah 59:14 Justice is turned back, And righteousness stands afar off; For truth is fallen in the street, And equity cannot enter. 15 So truth fails, And he who departs from evil makes himself a prey.
Truth has fallen in many professing pulpits and on stages these days. Truth is being constantly tortured by many many people.
The message of the gospel is simple enough, you are right. But it's never "Jesus died for you, now it's up to you"... That's Rick Warren's message. But Jesus died for the sins of THE WORLD, not just those who think they are able to make a decision for Jesus. He may claim to be a monergist, but his message asks people to co-operate with God in their salvation. "Now it's up to you..." If it was "up to us" we'd all still be on our way to hell.
you stated "we are having a terrible time finding someplace that even begins to appeal to us. We aren't quite the fundamentalist type, but we sure are no longer fond of evangelical churches".
Please know that you are not alone in your discouragement. Although we do attend a church, I am not satisfied with the services, theology and convictions; it seemed better than the alternatives. I feel that I am to liberal for the fundamentalists and too conservative for the evangelicals.
I noted that someone gave suggested websites for this writer. Any one have any suggestions for a dispensationalist?
If it wasn't up to us, why did Christ have to die? We all ARE on our way to Hell. Only those who choose to believe the message of the Gospel will have eternal life.
Suggestions for a dispensationalist???
Dispense with it!!!
Dispense with it!!!
(Sorry; couldn't resist...)
(Sorry; couldn't resist...)